The simple answer is yes. An acquaintance was having a difficult time accepting, or should I say fully appreciating being a witch after being raised Christian. Here is a bit of my offering of food for thought on the subject, regardless of the labels involved. All religion is fantasy and cannot be proven or disproven by empirical evidence. The Craft is only a religion in as much as we place extreme importance on its influence in our lives. Being a witch does not require adherence to any religious doctrine or dogma. Trace the history of any religion and you will eventually end up at a place where someone or some group of people, usually men, sat down and decided to create a religion. Tenacity does not equate to fact. I’m not implying that religion shouldn’t or doesn’t play a very important role in the lives of many if not most people, I am simply stating that regardless of that, religion does not impart morals; when possible, you seek out a religion that matches your own morals. Religion is a matter of faith, and we are the keepers of the faith. Do you!
I agree that you don’t need religion to have a set of morals & ethics, if anything it’s more about common sense at that point. But I don’t fully agree with the idea that religion is inherently non-existent. Yes, they were created by men, as are most ideals, [Politics, philosophy & religion.] Obviously not all ideals are exclusive to men, many intelligent women have came along to show the world otherwise.
But to suggest that it doesn’t exist because if was man-made is odd to me. The way I see it, the Gods had given us an innate ability to come together for a common goal of worshipping them, and the spirits of the earth, so we can ascend onto the stars.
As for the dogmatic side, I completely agree. All dogmatism really does is open the floodgates for bureaucrats and, well…morons, to come in & abuse it to their own ends. Damning the original purpose it served in the process. (I.E. Holy Roman Empire, Middle Eastern Theocracy’s, Ancient Mesopotamia, ECT.)
What an interesting topic! I thought I was an atheist most of my life. It didn’t affect my moral compass. I never accepted dogma drivel. I did feel stale and flat, though. I am glad I found spirituality. I feel good and at peace. I don’t care if magick and paganism is fake. I am happier believing in it. I dont harm anyone and my belief isnt harming me. I’m not believing everything I read at face value. It’s fluid, organic and personal.
Thanks for the topic!
My hope with the original post was to get people to think about what they believe and why, and to validate those beliefs, just as you did. To be fulfilling, one’s spiritual path must be uniquely their own. Others may share their ideas, what they believe, but that is their path and in no way written in stone. Spirituality in its purest form cannot be taught, only experienced. Brightest blessings!
It was not my intent to suggest that religion doesn’t exist, only that it is a construct of humans in an attempt to connect with the divine, hence no one belief system is any better or truer than another. I actually ended up with a page and a half in Word and was having difficulty paring it down to a more appropriate size for this forum. Thank you for your post. Blessed Be!
No I understand, it’s just how I read it. Well, I hope that this little conversation helped add to your perspective on the paper you’re writing. (If you plan on publishing it somewhere, do it.) Blessed be, Marcus. May the Gods watch over you.
I cackled when I read your title.
“Fantasy” is kind of a loaded word, although I get what you mean about religion being a human construct. “Fantasy” implies the energies don’t exist, which may be the belief of the atheists, but from my perspective, that’s the reality of our extremely left-brained modern societies that worship science. Because science is a religion too. LOL
The truth is, many people don’t believe what they themselves haven’t experienced and at worst, they take that as license to attack what they don’t understand.
It’s my belief, based on my personal experiences, that these otherworldly energies absolutely do exist, and that the human construct of religion was built on people experiencing that reality. Their environments and cultures just influenced how those energies presented themselves to them. It’s the synchronicity between these interpretations of world religions that you could argue “prove” the existence of the divine.
I’ve always loved these kinda of debates lol. Cheers!
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been chomping at the bit to retract that word. I just didn’t want to dominate the conversation. It was a very poor choice of wording and does not accurately reflect my thoughts and/or feelings. Magick is real and the pagan lifestyle reflects a close connection with nature and the universe. The psychosocial importance of ritual runs deep in human DNA, and one should be free to choose the rituals that, while not harming others, provide a personal sense of fulfillment, regardless of societal norms.
It is simple logic that if religion is a belief system, and a belief is by definition not a fact, then it must follow that religion is created by humans, and lacks sufficient empirical evidence to prove or disprove it. It isn’t a slur or put-down or whatever, it’s just fact. The takeaway for me is that no one else’s beliefs, no matter how prevalent or tenacious, are any more valid than mine.
After all, what is reality? Do we really even exist? How much of what we believe - or at least think we believe - is really little more than the sum of childhood trauma and social/cultural norms wrapped up in some intergenerational epigenetic transference, topped with mental health issues. Whew! My perception is my reality. Believing is seeing. What I believe is real to me.
I enjoy your comments and for the record, I do not think religion is fantasy. Well, okay, most of it. It is so very refreshing to be able to share thoughts like this without it turning into a blood fest. Brightest Blessings!
Haha, you’re welcome! And agreed, when you dig into the history of human religion deep enough it’s difficult not to reach that conclusion.
I agree with you, mostly!
It’s important to make that distinction that yes, these things do exist, and that yes that existence influences the human profoundly, but it still requires human hands and brains to do it. You don’t see animals doing funny rituals with tools to achieve something beyond themselves. They don’t need to. Their senses are miles and leagues beyond ours. It’s human limitations that drive that desire to build a thing like religion.
And then of course there’s the desire for money, power, influence and control. There are elements of those things behind the formation of just about every religion, I guarantee it. 100% human.
Lol, and not to interrupt your existential crisis, but yes we do exist. But absolutely, our state of mind, our environment, our body chemistry, emotions and collective consciousness are constantly changing, and profoundly influence our experience of the world. But the world itself absolutely does exist. Because matter exists. It’s there while we sleep, when we die, in a coma, or other alternate states of consciousness. It’s only our perspective that changes, though it speaks absolutely to the power of our minds that we can convince ourselves of something like that.
Belief is formed by the synthesis of our experiences. It’s the melding of every sense - conscious, subconsious and superconscious. Belief the result of being. It’s the thread that stitches us into ourselves, and that helps us find kindred spirits. Sometimes for better or worse, lol.
You gave my brain a real workout today! lol, I’m glad you’ve been enjoying my comments! I always hope that what I say is helpful. Odin, if it pleases you, grant us your blessing! ![]()
Someone once told me that if triangles had a god, it would be a triangle.
Merry Meet all my Sisters and Brothers,
Very interesting post and comments. Not to be a long post, so I will keep it short. I have summed up this answer for people who try to get into a religious discussion regarding the Craft. Here it is….we are all trying to reach the same destination; we’re just on different paths”. That usually shuts them up, OR contrarily, open them up to listen to your side. Now, a little bit longer….I was raised Athiest, but was encouraged to explore beliefs. As a child, I had psychic tendencies/but kinda blew them off. Anyway, I’m at the Craft now (after a severe trauma in my life) and I am so sorry that it took me this long to Really study and become involved.
Great Discussion all, Merry Part and have a great Week-end!!!—Lady Gene
This is the only place I feel “safe” even discussing my personal beliefs. Wouldn’t it be awesome if everyone could realize that what one believes is one’s reality, and it may be shared by many others - or no one else. It’s still, in your words, a different path to the same destination. What keeps me in the Craft is the raw natural beauty of it. I maintain that the Craft itself is not a religion, it is a method of manifesting desired change through focused directed energy; whatever way one chooses to relate to the universal energy, nature, deities, and so on is where the religion comes in - I mean where would we be without labels? ![]()
Merry Meet Marcus,
Yes, I hear you; thank-you for your reply. As for the Craft, I am not a Wiccan, because I do not necessarily believe in dieties, but I do believe that there are forces at work that we are not fully aware of…so, that makes me an eclectic, because I DO believe that there are “entities” (labels) to use a word, and yes, I give them names, just to make it easier to identify, and personalize (label) in my mind, not necessarily that I believe that particular entity exists. My beliefs are a little confusing to explain. However, we ARE all trying to reach the same destination. I agree with you that Witchcraft is about harnessing the forces of energy in a way that will suit us. I’m not sure if “religion” would be dieties, rituals, rites…so on…this is Wicca. The Craft does not “require” dieties, rituals, or rites…it’s all about individual interpretation. So, I believe “faith” would be more correct. I have FAITH that the elements/forces/dietes (labels) will work with me, if I listen to them correctly, and together, I will be able to reach my goals. Whether insight (soul work), circumstances that need changing, or general gratitude…I believe, as beings on this planet, we must work together with ALL things for the benefits of ALL on this planet. Hope this wasn’t too long an answer.
Merry Part and Meet Again, Lady Gene
Greetings Lady Gene!
Well said!
I am a polytheist reconstructionist pagan, who wants to be more eclectic as I’ve been sticking to just my ancestral practice for so long. I did once practice a more eclectic traditional witchcraft for a few years in the beginning of my personal practice, and I kind of want to go back to that, possibly. I was raised on Theosophy, a type of eastern philosophy rooted in occultism. I have a strange family. lol
It’s my love of ancient history, love of the wild, and my family that keep me steadfast on my path. ![]()
Merry Meet WrenTalbot,
Thank-you for your time responding. I likewise love history, I have my degree in History. I love the ancient parts, that is what I wanted to specialize in. I have always believed in the occult, though my mother treated it as a “stage/fad”. Since returning, I feel much more at ease with myself and those around me. Being and eclectic is wonderful!! You can add or remove any dieties/rituals/actions/spells that resonate with you. As always said, “if it feels right, it probably is”. More power to you, and would love to talk again!!![]()
Merry Part, Lady Gene
Well, I think it is made up… kinda… first of all we would take a look, at which time religion came to life (I know not every religion is born at the same time, but mostly the same circumstances). Most religions were born at desperate times. You know life in general was tough at that times. So you would need something that give ppl hope again aaaaand ofc you need something that’s controls ppl. (Sadly most ppl need to be at least directed else they run around like a headless chicken). The best way to control someone is, if they think they do it for a reason and that it is their own decision. Ppl were poorly educated, couldn’t even read, so they would naturally believe those hope promising words for many reasons. It is much more easy to mesmerise the simple minded.
I personally don’t believe in this god they made up and really I don’t need a god who tells me what moral is, and I also don’t need a devil to make him responsible for my sins. My understanding of moral comes from my „heart“ and my mistakes are my own and I am responsible for it. First of all I do believe in science, you can touch or feel it in other ways…most of the time. I do also believe that there is more than science can proof atm. I don’t think witchcraft and science are enemies, i think witchcraft is a part of science, kinda. ![]()
Merry Meet piccotama, and well said.
I think the (arguably forced) transition from the polytheism of most, if not all pagan cultures to the monotheism of urban dwellers was not a positive change. On a sociopolitical level, monotheism supported centralized states and empires—binding people of diverse backgrounds under one shared narrative and moral code. Monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam became tools for both spiritual devotion and large-scale patriarchal governance. It was never about the spiritual wellbeing of the subjects.
I also agree with the science of the Craft. I think magick is fundamentally tied to the energy of existence and based somewhere in quantum physics. Brightest Blessings!
Greetings!
I’m glad you brought up that first part about desperation & ill times. It’s a statistical fact that people who live in particularly dangerous areas tend to be the most religious. It’s not to discredit religion either, but there is a definite psychological need there. Also stress heightens our sensory receptivity to everything - making it more likely that people may start to notice energies that they ordinarily wouldn’t. You could look at it both ways. You are absolutely right in saying witchcraft is a branch of science! If you look into the history of the occult (especially Alchemy) you will find that is quite literally true!
And Marcus, once again you have spoken the contents of my mind - lol! It’s no secret to people who know me what I think about the monolithic monotheistic power structure of our world. Just thinking about the violence they inflicted on others to get here. The vast amount of history, lives, and cultures lost. The world would’ve been a much more peaceful place without them!
Merry December Y’all,
This will be my 2nd post. I did a study in college and it reiterated what I had thought and solidified my opinion on religion. Here goes, gonna try to be short. Almost ALL religions have a flood story, (Noah), a destruction story (Sodom & Gomorrah), and a Saviour (Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad)—So this is what I theorize. “GOD” are the aliens/extra terrestrials (how arrogant humans are to think they are the ONLY existence in the Galaxy), the flood and destructions ARE the aliens mad at each other or us (also signs of them in many old paintings and drawings), this makes the Saviours, either hybrid alien/human or enlightened humans. My take on it. Not just because I live here by area 51, but I have seen more than my share of UFO’s.
Yes, some think I’m crazy, but I’m 61 this month, and have thought/studies on this since before my teens, and this is still my standing thought on “religion”….so in my previous post….we are all heading to the same destination just on different paths. (We all want to know the TRUTH, no matter how we are trying to find it.)
Merry Weekend, Lady Gene ![]()